PWTORCH.COM
VIP SIGN-UP JUMP TO VIP
CONTACT US VISIT MMA TORCH




Select Next Article by Category





TAKE PWTORCH
WITH YOU!

PWTORCH IPHONE APP
Get our iPhone App (FREE!): Click Here
Or enter "PWTorch.com" on your Blackberry or other Smart Phone browser for mobile-version of PWTorch.


Torch Feedback
Reader Reax: More really thoughtful letters on ramifications of Benoit's damaged brain
Sep 6, 2007 - 7:03:00 PM


It's amazing to me that the WWE had no knowledge of any concussions sustained by Chris Benoit. They may not have any records of such, or even the ability to diagnose one, but their creative team sure knows how to book concussions. I just wonder how many times a WWE booking of a head injury has led to an actual concussion or any sort of brain damage. It's plain ignorance and negligence on their part. 

They need to end chairshots to the head. Chairs can still be an effective part of stories, but not as we've seen them used. They also need to end the storyline of Randy Orton kicking people in the head. That just looks awful in light of the latest developments. 

I've defended the WWE and the McMahon family for many years, but I just can't anymore. It's made me look foolish too many times. These people live in a world unto themselves. It's really sad, and I hope that Congress can somehow reel them back into reality. I won't hold my breath though. 

Mark Townsend
Freeport, Ill.

***

Thanks for your continuing insightful commentary on the Benoit tragedy. As someone who deals with medical related injury issues daily in my work, I would take your recommendation regarding a concussion expert further to require that WWE and TNA have all of their performers undergo MRI or CT scans of their brains. These could be done initially without contrast materials, which carry reactive risks, and which could be required if the initial scan results warranted. Perforrmers whose scans show evidence of long term damage must be evaluated and cleared by a team of neurologists before being allowed to return to the ring.

Also, the use of unprotected chairshots to the head must stop. Other moves involving trauma to the head need to be reviewed to determine if they are safe enough to be allowed to continue. While it is possible that some wrestlers could lose their finisher, there are plenty of other finishers available, even if they have to share moves, which sets up feuds over whose finisher is better (Flair vs. Brisco and Flair vs. Rogers, figure 4 vs. figure 4 come to mind).

I hope that someone will put an end to the madness. I was a big ECW fan, but now I wonder if the use of plunder was worth it.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reporting on this story and for your rebuttals of the talking heads who know nothing of pro wrestling and the former wrestlers looking for their last 15 minutes of fame by pandering to the talking heads or grinding old axes.

Robert Bethea

***

You were dead on with your comments today. Those vicious head shots with the chairs should be banned. The ones to the back I can live with. But not to the head.

But Benoit also had those flying high-risk maneuvers from the top corner rope headbutting his opponent in the middle of the ring. I'm wondering if that particular signature move didn't do more damage to his head over time than chairshots. I think Vince and top brass should evaluate those type of maneuvers as well.

Thanks for listening.

Richard Greene
Cary, N.C.

***

While I will agree with you that the WWE should be alarmed and concerned that it only takes three concussions to manifest later in life as problems, but that is a much bigger issue in the other wrestling companies because as so many wrestling reporters claim the WWE style is a slower style and isn't as hard-hitting.

There was a big reaction among wrestlers initially when roid rage was considered a possible cause of Benoit's actions not only by the mainstream media, but by the wrestling media as well not to mention ex-wrestlers looking for another 15 minutes of fame.

It is about damn time you realized that it was never a realistic hypothesis for what happened over the course of the entire weekend.

Suzanne Abshire

WK: I always said roid rage was merely a potential explanation for him snapping and killing his wife, but never an option for the entirety of the weekend's events. Roid rage is still a potential contributor to him snapping that night (roid rage is more a case of impulse control and short-triggered temper, but an explanation for a rage that lasts longer than several seconds or a minute without other factors present), but his overall despair and depression and hopelessness was a combination of many factors. It was never going to be a simple explanation, and I've been among the loudest voices saying so.

***

Just wanted to drop you a quick note regarding your article. I do 100 percent agree that concussion experts should be on the road with WWE or TNA wrestlers to monitor the amount of head trama they recieve from a night by night basis. I would bet my bottom dollar that there have been wrestlers who had concussions and never even knew it!

Look at Bret Hart as an example, after he recieved the career ending kick to the head from Goldberg.  It was at least a day or more before he went for help and was told he had a severe concussion. He went on to finish that match... taking at least two more crashes to his head and neck area. This is what eventually lead (in the long term) to a stroke after a bicycle accident. Bret Hart was able to make a recovery to live a normal life, but was never able to wrestle again. I wonder how many other wrestlers will have that problem as they get older. This is just one example. 

With this news about Benoit, maybe it would be a good time to interview Bret and maybe shed somemore light on how Benoit could have been feeling instead of blaming it on steroids.

I pretty much go online three or four times a day to read up on what's happening at the matches. Sometimes I wonder if we care about the wrestlers more than the promoters or the owners! Wrestling has always been known for its "here today, gone tomorrow" attitude. I think a lot of guys take the extra lumps to stay hot.

As stated in an article, Benoit shouldn't have been aloud to do the flying headbutt so often. Having a head trama specialist there could've noticed signs of concussions and forced him to stop. Would that have helped? Maybe. I bet it wouldn't have hurt.

Jason Gosby
Eastern Passage N.S.

***

I would have to disagree with your assessment that it was not the "bombshell" announcement early hype indicated it would be.

Having been a fan of Chris Benoit since he first came to WCW, I was really shocked at his murder of Nancy and Daniel. I could not wrap my head around the thought of this hard-working "locker room leader" suddenly snapping and killing his loved ones and himself.

I was saddened at Eddie Guerrero's death, and startled by some of the others, but Chris Benoit's death really hit me hard. Having an explanation for the oddness of his actions, the rashness combined with the calculating nature of his end, eases my mind at least a little. It is also gratifying to know that there is an explanation that can comfort, at least a little, the families that were devastated by the deaths.

I'm certain that Nancy Benoit's family's grief will not be eased by this revelation, but it might be mitigated. Chris Benoit's father is still missing his son, but at least he knows that the child he raised was not a monster.

And, as you yourself wrote, it provides a stark wake-up call for the industry. More than the possibility of "steroid rage," brain damage due to repeated concussions is something pro wrestling must be wary of. I doubt steroids are among Jeff Hardy's risk factors, but his risk-taking wrestling style may need to be altered, at least a little, to keep his head right. In TNA, the X Division is, to a great extent, a bunch of guys who do a lot of high spots, and they will need to look into what they can do to keep themselves safer.

Yesterday's Benoit news may not have been "sexy," in news-speak, but I would say that it was a major and important announcement that should have wide-ranging ramifications. Should have; whether or not it will is, of course, up to the wrestlers and the management, so it's anyone's guess if it does.

Anthony Glassman
Cleveland, Ohio

PWTORCH FORMAT CONVENTIONS

For the sake of clarity to our readers (and to save us time editing these same things over and over), please follow these simple conventions when writing Torch Reax:

-Wrestlers teaming together should be connected with "&" symbol (e.g. Hunter & Michaels, Devon & Ray) or with a "/" (e.g. Animal/Hawk, Harris/Storm), but not dashes and not the word "and."

-To designate wrestlers who are fighting, feuding, or wrestling each other, put a dash (-) between them (e.g. Michaels-McMahon, Jarrett-Sting, Hogan-Andre) or use "vs."

-The word versus should always be abbreviated this way: "vs." with a period afterward (not "v." or "v/s" or "VS" or "VS." or any other way).

-Plus, it's just our policy, but we don't indulge wrestling promotions' strange spelling fetishes where they spell Raw, Smackdown, Heat, Impact, etc. with the haphazard capitalization of various leTTeRz. It seems very "junior high," so no Raw (it's Raw), no iMPACT (it's Impact), etc.

-Please try to avoid overuse of dot-dot-dots. If you have a thought that's "trailing off," you can use for effect, but otherwise, just use periods, commas, and our personal favorite, semicolons if you dare. We have always had a policy of only one exclamation point and no ALL CAPS. Let your words convey the meaning of your point. There's many to choose from out there.



Send feedback on this article to pwtorch@gmail.com and we'll regularly publish reader feedback in the "Torch Feedback" category on the Main Listing.

For more BREAKING NEWS on WWE, TNA!
VISIT OUR AFFILIATE - PROWRESTLING.NET


For UFC & MMA NEWS & BLOGS:
VISIT OUR SISTER SITE - MMATORCH.COM

Upgrade to PWTORCH VIP: DETAILS & SIGN-UP INFO


MORE "Torch Feedback" ARTICLES
WWE PPV Price Increase Reax #1: Outrage expressed over WWE's latest PPV price raise - could the backlash cause WWE to second-guess decision?
TNA Impact Reax #3: "The build for the PPV matches somehow featured Hulk Hogan despite him yet to show up on TV"
TNA Impact Reax #2: "I'm tired of non-stop talking. This isn't a Broadway play; it's professional wrestling and the best stories are told in the ring"
Thursday Night TV Reax #1: "I feel anything TNA does right is inevitably drowned out by what they fail at"
ECW TV Reax #1: "William Regal has stepped up big time since coming to ECW and he deserves a World Title run"
WWE Raw Reax #2: "The major flaw of this show was the real lack of hype for Survivor Series"
WWE Raw Reax #1: "The main event commentary was hilarious with Triple H and HBK making fun of Vince, but DX has run its course..."
WWE Smackdown Reax #1: "Batista plays the perfect bully and Rey plays the perfect hero; this is a chance to make Batista the lead heel on Smackdown"
TNA Impact Reax #2: "Hogan, as great as he was, is 15 years beyond his prime and he signed with a company touting their so-called youth movement"
WWE Superstars Reax #1: "It's time for Cryme Tyme or The Hart Dynasty to go after that tag team championship, and please stop feuding"
TNA Impact Reax #1: "The episode-long Hogan build-up made me think that I shouldn't care about anything else on the show"
TORCH READER ALERT: Did you watch TNA Impact featuring Hulk Hogan? Send your feedback on the show
ECW TV Reax #1: "William Regal is as good as it gets whether he's portraying comedy, disgust, pompousness, or pure insanity!"
WWE Raw Reax #3: "Does Randy Orton's car now qualify WWE to get a Cash for Clunkers rebate?"
WWE Raw Reax #2: "Just like TNA, we have the same problem of a three-way title match where the two opponents didn't earn a title shot"
WWE Raw Reax #1: "Finally, a noteworthy episode of Raw with actual storyline progression – a rare treat!"
WWE Bragging Rights PPV Reax #3: "Obviously the Big Show doesn't care about brand supremacy any more than I do"
WWE Bragging Rights PPV Reax #2: "The image of Orton hunched over a control panel with an evil glare on his face and his finger on the big red button was priceless"
WWE Bragging Rights PPV Reax #1: "The show wasn't really bad, just didn't seem important. It didn't feel like a special show..."
WWE Smackdown Reax #1: "The opening promo was good to introduce the Smackdown 7 ... only to kill momentum by having the entire non-captain group switched"

(c) 1999-2009 TDH Communications Inc. - All rights reserved.

Current Top Ten Staff Picks
Staff Picks
TNA News: Ratings are in for Thursday's Impact - did TNA retain the audience from last week's Hulk Hogan Impact?
WWE News: Major update on 2010 PPVs - price change, PPV name change, WWE addresses PPV criticism (w/Detailed Analysis)
WWE News: WWE announces details on three-hour Raw featuring Slammy Award Show and special guest host Dennis Miller
WWE News: Report on WWE's conference call with investors - serious discussion of WWE TV, Vince McMahon: "This is not a Family Business"
WWE News: WWE announces third quarter 2009 earnings results - revenue up due to int'l, PPV business weak
WWE News: Raw TV ratings are in - how did the Osbournes fare as guest hosts?
WWE/TNA News: Hulk Hogan claims he taught Vince McMahon the wrestling business, talks more about his role in TNA
WWE Raw Results 11/2: KELLER'S rundown of all matches and segments, plus analysis, star ratings, quotebook
TNA News: Ratings are in for Hulk Hogan Impact - did the publicity help TNA?
WWE News: Hulk Hogan knocks WWE Hall of Fame ring and Vince McMahon in mainstream interview


TORCH QUICK-CLICK REFERENCE LIST
-CLICK TO FOLLOW PWTORCH ON TWITTER!
-CLICK FOR OUR FREE PWTORCH IPHONE APP

-CLICK FOR OUR FREE PODCAST (#1 in iTunes!)
-CLICK TO GET INFO ON BECOMING A VIP MEMBER
-CLICK TO VISIT MMATORCH.COM
-CLICK TO VISIT PROWRESTLING.NET

-CLICK TO EMAIL PWTORCH EDITORS




PWTORCH READER POLL

How will WWE's price raise to $44.95 per PPV event affect you?
I buy many PPVs a year and will continue to do so regardless
I buy a few PPVs a year and will selectively continue despite the price raise
I will cut back somewhat as it seems a little pricey
I will cut back drastically as this feels like gouging
Out of principle and protest, I will stop ordering any other than maybe WM
They had previously priced me out of the market, so this affirms my non-ordering habits
I will order any and all WWE PPVs because price isn't an issue for me
Price doesn't matter. I've been watching pirate feeds for a while
  

VOTE IN OR SEE RESULTS OF PREVIOUS POLLS

ARE YOU VIP? SIGN UP NOW FOR $7.50 A MONTH FOR INSTANT ACCESS TO AD-FREE, BENEFIT-PACKED VIP VERSION OF PWTORCH.COM (see screen capture)
PWTORCH VIP HOME PAGE

INFO ON SUBSCRIPTION TO AD-FREE VIP SITE

INCREDIBLE BENEFITS!
Over 50 full-length audio updates per month (iPod compatible)... New weekly award-winning Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter (text and printable pdf versions) with latest exclusive insider news, new Torch Talks, great columns, Keller's cover story, much more... Hundreds of full-length back issues of PWTorch Newsletter from late-'80s to today... Ad-free access to PWTorch.com's Main Listing... VIP Forum with interaction with other subscribers and Torch staff... Torch Talk Library with text and audio of hundreds of interview installments from last 20 years... Great layout... Deepest archives on pro wrestling history anywhere... Keller's PWTorch Today PDF Bulletins with email alerts... VIP Email reports on major PPVs and TV shows... Staff Roundtable Reviews (text and audio) followiing major events... The best staff of writers and world class reporting since 1987... We'd love for you to join us and experience the most entertaining, authoritative, experienced staff of professional reporters and commentators in the business...

SIGN ME UP NOW!

Compare the value of four or five months of PWTorch VIP content to the price of just one PPV. Can you cut 25 cents a day from your budget to make room for PWTorch VIP?

AND NEW FOR 2009!
Monthly "Vintage Audio Torch Talks." We are releasing for the first time ever audio versions of our text Torch Talk updates, the historical first series of insider interviews ever. Wade Keller's newsmaking in-depth interviews with wrestling's biggest names are now being made available exclusively to VIP members. But you must be a member each month, as these are not archived, so they are replaced with a new one each month! This debuted in January 2009 with a 68 minute interview with the late "British Bulldog" Davey Boy Smith. Who's next? Hulk Hogan? Eric Bischoff? The Rock? Goldberg? Jeff Hardy?

SIGN ME UP NOW!


UPCOMING EVENTS LISTING

Articles Grouped by Category
Torch Today
TORCH MONTHLY AWARDS: List of the 2009 Torch Monthly Award winners through October
TORCH MONTHLY AWARD VOTING: Results for Best/Worst in pro wrestling for October
TORCH MONTHLY AWARD VOTING: Polls OPEN for best/worst in pro wrestling from the month of October (Part 2 of 2)
WWE News
WWE News: "Target" of Chris Jericho's drunken slur turns the incident into a joke (w/VIDEO)
WWE News: Raw guest host wins NASCAR race in WWE vehicle; WWE receives plenty of publicity during race coverage
TORCH TALK DAILY with Eric Bischoff: The first of a series of questions pushing for answers on Bret Hart's lackluster run in WCW - "Montreal was a life-threatening wound"
TNA News
TNA News: Ratings are in for Thursday's Impact - did TNA retain the audience from last week's Hulk Hogan Impact?
TNA News: Next week's TNA Impact - Sting reappearing to talk Hulk Hogan, A.J. Styles vs. Samoa Joe
TNA News: Watch TNA president Dixie Carter's "Love it or Leave It" speech to the roster from Impact (w/VIDEO)
ROH News
ROH News: Jim Cornette officially begins as ROH executive producer at today's ROH TV tapings (w/VIDEO)
ROH News: Ring of Honor receives positive press for ROH TV taping this weekend
ROH News: ROH TV episodes now available on DirecTV's Video-On-Demand service
Other News
Hogan News: Can Hulk Hogan wrestle again? Hogan needs help walking during TV interview (w/VIDEO)
DGUSA News: Gabe Sapolsky predicts the wrestling industry will die without new TV wrestling stars
Hogan News: Hulk Hogan cracks the Top 15 of a Best-sellers List
PPV Reports
RADICAN'S DGUSA "Untouchable" PPV review - Doi vs. Danielson, Shingo vs. Richards
10/25 WWE Bragging Rights Results: KELLER'S detailed match-by-match PPV report - Cena vs. Orton Iron Man match
CALDWELL'S WWE BRAGGING RIGHTS PPV REPORT 10/25: Ongoing "virtual time" coverage of Cena vs. Orton, Team Raw vs. Team Smackdown
TV Reports
WWE SMACKDOWN ROUNDTABLE REVIEWS 11/6: Donofrio, Mezzera, Parks rate and review
WWE SUPERSTARS ROUNDTABLE REVIEWS 11/5: Caldwell, Donofrio, Parks rate and review
PARKS' WWE SMACKDOWN REPORT 11/6: Ongoing "virtual time" coverage of the show, including Batista vs. Hardy
Arena Reports
11/6 WWE in Brussels: Undertaker vs. Punk casket match, Christian vs. William Regal, Cryme Tyme vs. Hart Dynasty, of course
11/4 WWE in Dublin, Ireland: John Cena vs. Jack Swagger WWE Title match, DX vs. Legacy, Randy Orton vs. Kofi Kingston
10/30 Dragon Gate in Germany: Young Bucks, CIMA vs. Mike Quackenbush, El Generico
MMA / UFC Coverage
Strikeforce News: Fedor vs. Rogers Fight Results - Exciting fight lives up to expectations live on CBS
FEDOR VS. BRETT ROGERS - Keller's detailed report, analysis, star ratings of CBS live MMA fight card (redirect)
FEDOR vs. BRETT ROGERS on CBS Saturday Night - Torch Team Coverage (redirect)
KELLER'S TAKE
KELLER BLOG: WrestleMania goes up to $55, all other PPVs $45 - let the pirate feed frenzy begin
KELLER BLOG: Dixie Carter asks wrestlers to step it up, but what does that mean? Shouldn't their goal to be winning matches and nothing else?
KELLER FLASHBACK: Review of Hulk Hogan's first autobiography - Hogan's political maneuvers evident in who he protects and buries
MITCHELL'S TAKE
MOJO MITCHELL'S RAW 11/2: Stream of My Fourth Grade Hero and The Mid-Card Kicks Main Event Ass
MITCHELL FLASHBACK #4: In 1993, after Hogan first left the WWF, he had a lot of career choices
MITCHELL FLASHBACK #3: Hogan's autobiography review - insight into his world
MCNEILL'S TAKE
McNEILL BLOG: The Big Questions About Hulk Hogan in TNA
Fight For Your Right to Bragging: McNEILL Previews WWE Bragging Rights!
Glory, Glory, Hallelujah! McNEILL Previews TNA Bound for Glory 2009
CALDWELL'S TAKE
CALDWELL'S BLOG: Vince McMahon is officially delusional, plus Vince's hidden message to Stephanie McMahon
CALDWELL'S TUESDAY CHAT w/GREG PARKS: Raw & Smackdown discussion - Orton-Kofi build-up compared to Rey-Batista, DX dissension, Sheamus stands out
CALDWELL FLASHBACK: TNA Year-End Review 2005 - Must-read flashback to when TNA became a choice for wrestlers in an era very, very similar to 2009
RADICAN'S TAKE
RADICAN: Daddy's little girl V 2.0 debuts on Impact
RADICAN: Wolfe-Angle follow up displays typical warning signs of danger from creative standpoint
RADICAN: TNA finally straps a rocket on the right ass
The Specialists
11/7 WWE Smackdown Hits & Misses: Mysterio vs. Knox, Punk vs. Truth, Batista vs. Hardy
PARKS BLOG: Chris Jericho should know better
UNDER THE MICROSCOPE - TNA Impact 11/5: TNA = The Office, What Vince Russo was thinking during Dixie Carter's speech, Desmond Wolfe and Duran Duran, Highlander spotting, Numbers - Titleholders since 1990
Guest Editorials
GUEST EDITORIAL: Disgruntled TNA fan says he's done with the promotion after today's Impact taping (Contains SPOILERS)
GUEST EDITORIAL: The ultimate irony - Hulk Hogan appears on TNA Impact and pre-taped TV sitcom promoting WWE on the same night
GUEST BOOK REVIEW: Hulk Hogan provides strong defense of his public image in new autobiography
Torch Feedback
WWE PPV Price Increase Reax #1: Outrage expressed over WWE's latest PPV price raise - could the backlash cause WWE to second-guess decision?
TNA Impact Reax #3: "The build for the PPV matches somehow featured Hulk Hogan despite him yet to show up on TV"
TNA Impact Reax #2: "I'm tired of non-stop talking. This isn't a Broadway play; it's professional wrestling and the best stories are told in the ring"
Ask the Editor
Ask the Editor: Wouldn't incorporating MMA-style holds into pro wrestling matches just be trying to be something it's not?
ASK THE EDITOR: Have the Michaels-Batista promos crossed a line with use of insider terms, references to "jobs"?
ASK THE EDITOR: Why do wrestlers in WWE refer to wrestling as "the business" and not "the sport"?
DVDs - VGames - Books
VIDEO GAME REVIEW - Smackdown vs. Raw 2010: WWE's latest video game called best since the No Mercy measuring stick
RADICAN'S ROH DVD REVIEW SERIES: 7/24 DBD VII: N1 - Hero & Richards vs. Storm & Steen
RADICAN'S CHIKARA DVD REVIEW: 5/24 "Anniversario Yang" - The Colony vs. F.I.S.T, 8-Man Tag
Torch Flashbacks
TORCH TALK FLASHBACK with Hulk Hogan: Hogan talks to PWTorch editor Wade Keller about Eric Bischoff, the demise of WCW
TORCH TALK FLASHBACK with Hulk Hogan: Hogan talks to PWTorch editor Wade Keller about his relationship with Ric Flair
TORCH TALK FLASHBACK with Hulk Hogan: Hogan talks to PWTorch editor Wade Keller about his relationship with Vince Russo
VIP Exclusive Features
5+ HOURS: Definitive all-new Eric Bischoff "Torch Talk" available exclusively to PWTorch VIP members
11/7 Bruce Mitchell Audio Show: Reader questions on Goldberg's Winning Streak, Zbyszko's HOF Credentials, Overrated Matches, X-Pac Sucks Chants, Test's Name, Paul Ellering's Story (44 min.)
11/6 Bruce Mitchell Audio Show: Why Vince McMahon said WWE isn't a family business, Hulk Hogan-TNA analysis, Dixie Carter's last-gasp speech (65 min.)
Torch Trivia
TORCH TRIVIA 2/28: Which wrestler backed out of a WWA PPV in February 2002?
TORCH TRIVIA 2/27: Who said this quote about Hulk Hogan's athleticism 11 years ago?
TORCH TRIVIA 2/25: What said this quote about WWE's mid-1990s drug testing policy?
Torch Instant Polls
INSTANT POLL: How will WWE's price raise to $4.95 per PPV affect you?
SMACKDOWN POLL: Who was the MVP of the 11/6 Smackdown if you saw the show?
TNA IMPACT POLL: Who was the MVP of the 11/5 Impact if you saw the show?
PWTorch Free Podcast
11/4 Nostalgia Audio with Brian Hoops: Format change to the show, new guest host, upcoming shows
FREE FOR ALL: 10/27 Bruce Mitchell Audio Special: Hogan-Bischoff-TNA story from all angles including Monday Night War II possibilities (32 min.)
6/23 Nostalgia Audio with Brian Hoops: Former WCW rapmaster PN News joins Brian Hoops to preview upcoming Midwest shows (10 min.)
Annual Obituaries
SPECIALIST: List of Deceased Wrestlers for 1999 - Muchnick, Rick Rude, Owen Hart, Renegade...
SPECIALIST: List of Deceased Wrestlers for 2000 - Solie, Albright, Duncum, Tsuruta, Blue Demon, Al Costello
SPECIALIST: List of Deceased Wrestlers for 2001: Johnny Valentine, Terry Gordy, Chris Adams, Bertha Faye, Helen Hart