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VIP - WWE RAW ROUNDTABLE REVIEWS: Keller, McNeill, Caldwell, Mitchell, Parks
Dec 18, 2007 - 2:19:25 PM


This Raw Roundtable is typically a VIP-exclusive featue, but we present it today as an example of one of many features that are part of a PWTorch VIP membership. If you appreciate our approach to covering pro wrestling, we welcome you to give a VIP membership a try. Just click on the VIP Sign-Up button above, just under our logo...

Pat McNeill, PWTorch columnist (7.5)

Usually, we have to wait until January for WWE to get serious about its build to WrestleMania. This year, it looks like Vince McMahon and World Wrestling Entertainment are starting of a couple weeks early. This was a good show which built toward March 30 while being entertaining enough for two hours of prime time television.

The first real highlight of the night was the promo battle between Chris Jericho and John Layfield. Even though it was just a tease of what's to come, these two men fed off each other verbally in a way that Jericho and Randy Orton didn't. Most fans will be looking forward to more of this next week.

The return of the Ric Flair storyline was a mixed bag. Bruce Mitchell hit on some of the problems with the Flair segment. The other niggling problem was Ric Flair's big concessions speech before the match. Were we supposed to believe that after Flair's loss, McMahon would have security hustle the Nature Boy out of the building without a chance to say farewell? Maybe that should have been more clear.

Carlito and Santino have a goofy chemistry together. Hopefully, WWE will allow their new relationship to play out over the next few months. The main event did its job of establishing Jeff Hardy as a wrestler with the potential to beat Randy Orton at the Royal Rumble. It was an acceptable main event, Shawn Michaels put Hardy over at the end of the match, and the Buffalo fans bought it. What more can you ask for? Thumbs up.

Greg Parks, PWTorch contributor (7.0)

Very good show. The mic work was really good throughout the program, and the wrestling was decent-to-good. It was a tough job to follow up the 15th anniversary show from last week, but they didn't miss a beat. They really laid out intriguing scenarios in a couple different areas and it should be interesting to see where they go with them.
 
Whoever convinced the writers to let Ric Flair cut a relatively long promo should be smiling after tonight. Flair did an awesome job, and while his match with Umaga was not good, most people will only remember the outcome - Flair doesn't have to retire. And his encounter with Triple H in two weeks brings up some questions, such as does Triple H lay down for his mentor and hero and if he does, how will Flair respond, since he wants everyone to bring their "A" game? Or has Triple H been saddened by what Flair has become and want to put him out of his misery?
 
The Cody Rhodes & Hardcore Holly thing just gets more confusing, as they haven't even addressed that situation in weeks, and it's not playing out in the ring either. At this point, no one even cares, which makes one wonder why they got the belts in the first place.
 
Santino & Carlito team has epic hilarious possibilites, but I wish London & Kendrick weren't the ones jobbing. Still, it was for a good cause. Jericho and JBL also were a highlight, as both men did a great job with their promos, especially Jericho's part challenging JBL's manhood. 
 
The opening segment(s) was pretty funny, as the crowd was into cowering McMahon. Even Triple H hit some high comedy notes, something of a rarity with all the DX humor still lying around. The divas battle before it was a good way to get the crowd involved early. 
 
The main event was a good match, though the crowd didn't seem to buy Orton as a killer heel. Still, it was a feel-good ending with Hardy going over.
 
In other words, this was a much better show than the E's Raw offering in the summer in Buffalo. 

Bruce Mitchell, PWTorch columnist (7.0)

JBL and Chris Jericho were tremendous in their dueling promos segment. The two showed what can still be accomplished with serious, credible, intense, and entertaining mic work that leads, inevitably but not immediately, to a fight.  The respect and love that today's fans feel for Ric Flair is the only thing that saved his stuff tonight. What he says and does is mostly out of character. What sports or entertainment entity doesn't do its homework on its own legends? They need to really put over Jeff Hardy strong if his title challenge with a growing-in-stature Randy Orton and, tonight, they did. He's no Triple H, though. Mr. McMahon, professional screwball, hijacking the first hour is still tiresome.

James Caldwell, Torch columnist (8.5)
 
I promise, there won't be a time-off speech with my review of Raw, but see what happens when the creative team sees the light at the end of the tunnel with a week off from writing original TV programming next week. Suddenly, they turn into A-level Hollywood writers. This week's show was great. Not good. Great. There were four cornerstones on the foundation of this one - Ric Flair promo, fantastic and heated Jericho vs. JBL promo exchange, a great TV main event with Hardy & Michaels vs. Orton & Kennedy, and Triple H doing something intriguing with Vince McMahon for once.
 
It looks like they picked up the McMahon limo explosion angle after taking a five-month hiatus, but this is really intriguing with McMahon. He always gets beat up, but he never does anything about it. He's always been the heel to take his medicine and like it, but never do anything to stop having to take it. I'm at the very least intrigued to see where Vince's program is heading, plus he set up a very, very intriguing Ric Flair vs. Triple H match for the live show in two weeks. A perfect collision of two storylines for Flair and Hunter with all sorts of possibilities. Will it be finger on the chest and Hunter lays down for Flair, or will they have a battle with Flair demanding that all opponents bring their A game? Good set-up.
 
Jericho's serious look this week was a breath of very fresh air. Previously, it seemed he was simply along for the ride and happy to be in WWE having a main event feud. We got a little more glimpse into Jericho's dynamic wrestling personality that JBL brought out of him. They left the Royal Rumble stipulation hanging in the air, though, with JBL saying Jericho wouldn't be in the Rumble match if he shows up on Smackdown. They lacked clarity on that point by the conclusion of the promo, but everything else was terrific.
 
The main event was spot-on. Kennedy was the star, in my eyes. Jeff Hardy already had the superstar pop in the opening segment, and then he got the superstar pop when he finished off Randy Orton to win the tag match, but Kennedy stood out to me more. Kennedy was coasting for a few weeks leading to Armageddon, but he appears to have come alert to a wake-up call to get back on track. Very strong effort from Kennedy. Michaels seemed to be along for the ride this week, but he gives Hardy instant credibility as #1 contender.
 
Ric Flair's promo was outstanding. A real good balance of emotion and careful reflection that's going to be a trademark of his retirement program. His match with Umaga was sluggish at times, but there was enough anticipation in the air with everything being on the line for Flair, that it was more interesting than a three-minute slowdown period in a standard mid-card match. Good booking for Flair to get the win in smart fashion that also reasonably protected Umaga. They haven't done much to protect Umaga recently anyways, but he's someone they can always utilize in a short-term program if needed.
 
Santino is great. I was afraid he wouldn't get mic time, but my fears were quickly erased after the match. Carlito can look on the bright side with his alignment to Santino that he's guaranteed TV time each week... The opening divas match was there, but didn't do much. I'm sure they didn't want Beth Phoenix to get a hometown babyface pop, but she needed to be on the show as the Women's Champion, especially after a successful title defense the previous night... I don't care about the tag division without some backstory. Anything. Something...

Wade Keller, Torch editor (8.5)

The serious push of Jeff Hardy, with a pitch-perfect tag team match victory over champ Randy Orton, would have been enough to make this a winning Raw. Throw in the resumption of the Ric Flair Retirement Challenge, a campy but fun performance from Vince McMahon (picking up where his breakdown left off before the Benoit Family Tragedy), an intriguing new team of Carlitio & Santino Marella, a great sales pitch to watch Raw in two weeks when Flair faces Triple H, a memorable verbal battle between Chris Jericho and JBL, and a strong in-ring main event tag match to fulfill a wrestling quotient, and this stacked up as one of the better Raws of the year.

I'd like to see the backstory explored regarding why Carlito and Santino decided to team together. What is their goal? What's their relatonship like behind the scenes? There's a lot of potential with that duo. There's still untapped potentail for the dynamic between Holly and Cody. Did they get cold feet on the strange undertones, or are they putting it off until after the holidays?

Vince McMahon deseves criticism when overexposd, but this was McMahon at his campy over-the-top best. He knows his audience and the tone of the show. I'm curious where this goes. I'm not sure I get how it was "punishing" Triple H to "force him" to wrestle William Regal and Coach. That's hardly an intimidating situation for Hunter. That Hardy got to be the one who triggered McMahon's breakdown is another exampl of the company getting behind Hardy. He seems more ready than ever. It's crazy to think he's just 30 with all he's accomplished, all of his screwps, his long hiatus, and his stint in TNA. There could be a WWE Title run in his future after all. He's being tested on the mic and passing so far.


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WWE News: WWE announces guest hosts for the next four weeks of Raw, including two new names
Hogan News: Watch VIDEO of the Hulkamania Press Conference breaking down into a staged fight (w/VIDEO)
TNA News: SPOILERS - first two matches announced for TNA's December PPV
MOJO MITCHELL'S WWE RAW 11/16: Stream of Piper In The Back, Hornswoggle Stabbed in the Back, An MSG Look Back, Mr. McMahon Backs Out, Kofi Kingston Backs Randy Orton Up
CALDWELL'S WWE RAW REPORT 11/16: Complete coverage of Roddy Piper hosting, DX vs. Cena & Taker vs. Jericho & Show


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UPCOMING EVENTS LISTING

Articles Grouped by Category
Torch Today
WWE RAW 11/16: Place Your Bets on tonight's Raw - Week 12 featuring Roddy Piper
WWE RAW 11/2: "Place your Bets" Scoreboard after Week 11 - Review the previous scores before tonight's Raw PYB contest
TORCH MONTHLY AWARDS: List of the 2009 Torch Monthly Award winners through October
WWE News
TORCH TALK DAILY with Eric Bischoff: Bischoff talks Standards & Practices in WCW before Vince Russo came along
WWE News: What's on Smackdown tonight - Taker & Kane vs. Big Show & Jericho
WWE News: Jim Ross comments on possible WrestleMania 26 return, current WWE contract status
TNA News
TNA News: Spike TV pre-empting episode of Impact in December
TNA News: TNA Impact ratings break down - Inside the numbers on TNA's recent ratings trends
TNA News: Impact rating is in - how did post Turning Point episode fare?
ROH News
ROH News: ROH Title match signed for Final Battle; Air dates for McGuinness and Danielson's Farewell speeches
ROH News: Ring of Honor announces details on Austin Aries's next ROH Title defense
ROH News: Tonight is Bryan Danielson's final ROH match - details on tonight's special ROH TV episode (w/VIDEO)
Other News
Other News: "The Rock" Dwayne Johnson records PSA for NASA as new spokesman (w/VIDEO)
PWG News: Results from Battle of Los Angeles first round matches; final matches scheduled for tonight
PWG News: First round matches for tonight's Battle of Los Angeles tournament - Aries vs. Kendrick; Cabana, Shelley, Strong in action
PPV Reports
CALDWELL'S TNA TURNING POINT PPV REPORT 11/15: Ongoing "virtual time" coverage of A.J. Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Daniels
RADICAN'S DGUSA "Untouchable" PPV review - Doi vs. Danielson, Shingo vs. Richards
10/25 WWE Bragging Rights Results: KELLER'S detailed match-by-match PPV report - Cena vs. Orton Iron Man match
TV Reports
PARKS' WWE SMACKDOWN REPORT 11/20: Ongoing "virtual time" coverage of the show, including Jericho & Show vs. Undertaker & Kane
CALDWELL'S WWE SUPERSTARS TV REPORT 11/19: Complete coverage of Henry vs. Rhodes on WGN
PARKS' TNA IMPACT REPORT 11/19: Ongoing "virtual time" coverage of the post-Turning Point show
Arena Reports
11/21 Hulkamania Tour in Melbourne: Very detailed report on Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair's first matches back, Hogan and Flair bleed heavily, Undercard matches re-create Attitude Era
11/14 TNA in Scranton, Pa.: Second Report - Styles vs. Joe vs. Daniels, Chris Sabin vs. Suicide, Amazing Red vs. Homicide
11/14 WWE in Dublin: The Undertaker very limited in the ring vs. C.M. Punk, Rey vs. Dolph, Very interesting John Morrison vs. Matt Hardy match, No Jericho
MMA / UFC Coverage
MMA News: Update on Brock Lesnar's health - how long Lesnar had been dealing with health problems, expected return to UFC
MMA News: Brock Lesnar health update - UFC president much more optimistic than this weekend
MMA News: Brock Lesnar released from the hospital tonight; Lesnar's UFC future in doubt
KELLER'S TAKE
KELLER BLOG: WrestleMania goes up to $55, all other PPVs $45 - let the pirate feed frenzy begin
KELLER BLOG: Dixie Carter asks wrestlers to step it up, but what does that mean? Shouldn't their goal to be winning matches and nothing else?
KELLER FLASHBACK: Review of Hulk Hogan's first autobiography - Hogan's political maneuvers evident in who he protects and buries
MITCHELL'S TAKE
MITCHELL FLASHBACK (Dec. 1994): C.M. Punk's character is the latest Vince McMahon creation responding to criticism of his WWE product
MOJO MITCHELL'S WWE RAW 11/16: Stream of Piper In The Back, Hornswoggle Stabbed in the Back, An MSG Look Back, Mr. McMahon Backs Out, Kofi Kingston Backs Randy Orton Up
MOJO MITCHELL'S RAW 11/2: Stream of My Fourth Grade Hero and The Mid-Card Kicks Main Event Ass
MCNEILL'S TAKE
Get Thru This: McNEILL Previews WWE Survivor Series 2009!
The Night They Drove Ol' Dixie Down: McNEILL previews TNA Turning Point 2009!
McNEILL BLOG: The Big Questions About Hulk Hogan in TNA
CALDWELL'S TAKE
CALDWELL'S PPV/DVD REVIEW: Dragon Gate USA's "Open the Historic Gate" debut event - Review of whether following DGUSA is worth your time and money
CALDWELL'S TUESDAY CHAT w/GREG PARKS: Raw, Smackdown, TNA PPV discussion - MSG crowd, Survivor Series hype, Kofi breaks out, CSI:Miami vs. 30 Rock
CALDWELL'S BLOG: Hitting the hot topics - Raw tonight, Turning Point vs. Survivor Series, Jesse Ventura, Brock Lesnar, Shane McMahon
RADICAN'S TAKE
RADICAN: A list of things wresters and TNA fans can support for Dixie Carter
RADICAN'S SHIMMER Vol. 23 Review - Busic-Melissa, Kong-Martinez, MsChif-Deeb
RADICAN: Daddy's little girl V 2.0 debuts on Impact
The Specialists
ABSURDITY OF IT ALL - TNA Impact: CLICK ON THIS LINK TNA, If You Dress Like Hulk Hogan People Will Give You Money, I Use Amazing Red To Floss My Teeth
11/19 WWE Superstars Hits & Misses: Rosa Mendes, Eric Escobar, Lackluster Show
UNDER THE MICROSCOPE - TNA Impact 11/19: Forgotten history between A.J. and Angle, TNA's new cameras, Pope gets referee assist, Numbers - The Rock a horrible tag champ
Guest Editorials
GUEST EDITORIAL: Disgruntled TNA fan says he's done with the promotion after today's Impact taping (Contains SPOILERS)
GUEST EDITORIAL: The ultimate irony - Hulk Hogan appears on TNA Impact and pre-taped TV sitcom promoting WWE on the same night
GUEST BOOK REVIEW: Hulk Hogan provides strong defense of his public image in new autobiography
Torch Feedback
ECW TV Reax #1: "C.M. Punk scoring the pin in the main event made Smackdown seem more important than ECW"
WWE Raw Reax #3: "While WWE delivered an above-quality show, they still haven't given viewers a reason to order Survivor Series"
WWE Raw Reax #2: "This was NOT one of the best Raws of 2009, but one of the worst..."
Ask the Editor
Ask the Editor: Wouldn't incorporating MMA-style holds into pro wrestling matches just be trying to be something it's not?
ASK THE EDITOR: Have the Michaels-Batista promos crossed a line with use of insider terms, references to "jobs"?
ASK THE EDITOR: Why do wrestlers in WWE refer to wrestling as "the business" and not "the sport"?
DVDs - VGames - Books
CALDWELL'S PPV/DVD REVIEW: Dragon Gate USA's "Open the Historic Gate" debut event - Review of whether following DGUSA is worth your time and money
RADICAN'S ROH DVD REVIEW SERIES: Death Before Dishonor VII: N2 - Storm-Hero, Ryan-Cabana
RADICAN'S SHIMMER Vol. 23 Review - Busic-Melissa, Kong-Martinez, MsChif-Deeb
Torch Flashbacks
KELLER'S WWE SURVIVOR SERIES PPV REPORT 5 YRS. AGO (11-14-04): Benoit & Orton & Jericho vs. Evolution & Edge, JBL vs. Booker T, Team Angle vs. Cena Dream Team
PARKS'S WWE SMACKDOWN REPORT 1 YR. AGO (11-21-08): Final Survivor Series build-up to Undertaker vs. Big Show casket match, Jeff Hardy vs. Triple H, Morrison & Miz
KELLER'S WWE SURVIVOR SERIES PPV REPORT 10 YRS. AGO (11-14-99): Big Show vs. Triple H vs. The Rock, Edge & Christian & Hardys team, Chris Jericho vs. Chyna
VIP Exclusive Features
11/20 Wade Keller Hotline - Guest Bruce Mitchell: Survivor Series Match by Match Preview & Predictions (20 min.)
11/20 Bruce Mitchell Audio Show: Listener Questions - How Vince McMahon was perceived before he took over, Outlaw Promotions stories, Sting Flips off Bruce, Albano Craziness (45 min.)
PWTorch Newsletter #1117/1118 (31 pages!): Raw at MSG, TNA Victory Road PPV Roundtable, Mitchell on Russo-Hogan, Keller on Dixie Speech, more
Torch Trivia
TORCH TRIVIA 2/28: Which wrestler backed out of a WWA PPV in February 2002?
TORCH TRIVIA 2/27: Who said this quote about Hulk Hogan's athleticism 11 years ago?
TORCH TRIVIA 2/25: What said this quote about WWE's mid-1990s drug testing policy?
Torch Instant Polls
SMACKDOWN POLL: Who was the MVP of the 11/20 Smackdown if you saw the show?
TNA IMPACT POLL: Who was the MVP of the 11/19 Impact if you saw the show?
ECW MVP POLL: Who was the MVP of the 11/17 ECW TV if you saw the show?
PWTorch Free Podcast
11/4 Nostalgia Audio with Brian Hoops: Format change to the show, new guest host, upcoming shows
FREE FOR ALL: 10/27 Bruce Mitchell Audio Special: Hogan-Bischoff-TNA story from all angles including Monday Night War II possibilities (32 min.)
6/23 Nostalgia Audio with Brian Hoops: Former WCW rapmaster PN News joins Brian Hoops to preview upcoming Midwest shows (10 min.)
Annual Obituaries
SPECIALIST: List of Deceased Wrestlers for 1999 - Muchnick, Rick Rude, Owen Hart, Renegade...
SPECIALIST: List of Deceased Wrestlers for 2000 - Solie, Albright, Duncum, Tsuruta, Blue Demon, Al Costello
SPECIALIST: List of Deceased Wrestlers for 2001: Johnny Valentine, Terry Gordy, Chris Adams, Bertha Faye, Helen Hart